Real estate’s next chapter: finding opportunity beyond beta

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[00:01:57] - Erin

So, I think what we're seeing in the market today is, you know, investors always like to time the market. It's always about, okay, when can we get in at bottom and ride the wave of accelerating pricing, right? So I think that's the biggest difference today. We don't have that opportunity of riding this potential wave of capital appreciation.

NARRATOR:

That's Erin Patterson, Global Co-Head of Research and Strategy at Manulife, who explains why the recovery is taking a different shape this time around.

[00:02:13] - Erin

So, the biggest difference is interest rates, where interest rates lie today. So obviously we are at a higher ceiling here. We are looking at transacting in an environment that we haven't seen in decades. And so it is really still a great vintage opportunity. We do believe it's elongated compared to other cycles. So in past corrections, we saw deep declines followed by pretty quick reacceleration in pricing at sometimes a double-digit rate. We do not expect that to happen given where interest rates are.

[music fades in]

NARRATOR:

Welcome to The PERE Podcast. In this special episode, sponsored by Manulife, we're looking at how investors are navigating higher rates, uneven recoveries, and a wider spread between assets, sectors and geographies.

Joining Erin are Manulife’s Maggie Coleman, Global Head of Client and Portfolio Solutions; and Jessica Harrison, Head of Transactions and Capital Markets for North America. They’ll discuss where capital is moving, why execution and information matter more in this cycle, how niche sectors are opening up new opportunities, and what diversification means in a more fragmented market.

As Jessica adds, higher rates for longer have changed the pace of this recovery, and the way investors are approaching it. More capital is returning, but the transaction market is still well short of its previous peaks.

[00:03:16] - Jessica

Look, we've been living and breathing this environment for a long time now. Our perspective, some have either learned how to navigate through this volatility while others have remained on the sidelines. I think there's been a fear of missing out that has really come to fruition in 2026 and more capital has come off the sideline, which has driven transaction volume up, but still not to the levels that they once were. I think where we've been able to navigate through these waters in this last couple of years is really unlocking that opportunity.So, that's come to fruition through larger transactions, more complex transactions, structured transactions, off-market opportunities, really kind of capitalizing on that market dislocation, but somewhat being known for a problem solver, right? And how do we solve problems to structure the right outcome for our clients and the highest risk-adjusted returns that we possibly can. I would say overall transaction volume is down. Marketed deals of quality are commanding a ton of activity and a ton of interest, which is driving more competitive pricing.

NARRATOR:

Jessica notes that opportunities have emerged through larger and more complex transactions designed to capitalize on market dislocation. Maggie, meanwhile, says transaction activity is gradually returning, even as investors continue to adapt to a higher-for-longer interest rate environment.

[00:04:45] - Maggie

Sentiment that transaction volume is slowly starting to pick back up, and there's starting to be capital returning to the transaction market, is certainly something that our investors and LPs and consultants are picking up on. They've experienced, as Erin was talking about, this elongated cycle of higher interest rates, they've been in this elongated cycle of redemptions. And so, their ability to think about new allocations has been limited to a certain extent. I think fundraising, we've seen the limitations to capital raising over the past cycle. But there's a growing view among investors that they want access to not only funds, they want access to operating companies, they want to understand what structures will provide them with more protection. So, we're seeing diversification of structure that I think is quite interesting. And it's going to be probably a consistent theme over the next few years.

[00:06:34] - Erin

And just to close that out real quick, I think, Jessica, you brought up a great point of this idea, this notion of coming off the sidelines. And then to Maggie's point, you have investors that need to come off the sidelines. You have managers that need to come off the sidelines. You have sellers that need to come off the sidelines. and capital that needs to come off the sidelines. So, there is a lot of coordination going on here, which is part of the reason this recovery cycle, this recovery part of the cycle, will be elongated for all of these pieces to come together.

[00:07:23] - Maggie

Yeah, and the good news is I think allocations to real estate by institutional investors have not gone dramatically down. They've stayed pretty consistent across each of the regions. So, there is a desire to put capital to work in this area of private markets. And again, I think it’s just moving capital off the sidelines and into really unique opportunities.

NARRATOR:

As capital gradually returns to the market, investors are also reassessing where opportunities exist across regions and sectors. Erin argues that higher interest rates are only part of the story. Increasing policy divergence, shifting supply chains, and changing capital flows are also reshaping how investors think about global real estate.

[00:08:05] - Erin

So, I think, by and large the interest rate environment is, you know, very thematic globally. It is a higher rate environment. And sure, there is variation depending on the region that you're looking at. But a critical consideration across the board, perhaps more so than in previous recovery periods, is really around more policy divergence and this idea of deglobalization. So, we've talked and heard a lot about supply chain disruption, energy flows, energy transition, and infrastructure investment. These are really global problems that are being solved everywhere. And while they might seem sort of separate from commercial real estate investing, there are obvious trickle-down effects globally. It is also making regions become more self-reliant on their own policies, processes, and looking inward for domestic investment. So, the cross-border piece has been a little bit more challenging, I think, because of that.

[00:10:02] - Maggie

Yes, I would 100% agree. I think that global capital flows into real estate, whether it's intra-regional or inter-regional, certainly has slowed a bit over this past cycle. Although I would say part of the challenge has been not just the notion of self-reliance, which is very real, particularly across some of the, you know, some of the regions in Europe, but the just the cost, right? Global investors, as they're thinking about their risk-adjusted returns, have to really contemplate hedging costs and how those costs are going to impact their cash-on-cash or their overall return profile. And so that's been a, a pretty big challenge for some of the APAC investors as well as some of the European investors in thinking about where they want to continue to place capital. So, when we think about where investor appetite sits, it is continuing to be focused around the industrial and the adjacencies, multifamily and those adjacencies. I would say we are seeing within our APAC region strong activity in sectors that are more niche, like purpose-built student accommodation and co-living due to some of their structural undersupply.

NARRATOR:

While industrial and multifamily remain favored sectors for many investors, Maggie points to growing interest in more specialized property types. From the transaction side, Jessica says that increasing competition is bringing new attention to these niche sectors, even as information gaps remain a challenge.

[00:12:36] - Jessica

The niche sectors really play an interesting role across the primary sectors because we have seen more and more interest and attention from investors that is driving competition in this space. I think the biggest challenge we face in some of these sectors is really information, which is where we have an advantage.

[00:13:43] - Maggie

Yeah, and I think that's a great point, Jessica. You know, our open-ended funds have been integrating alternatives into their portfolio construction. And I think our investors have appreciated that. It gives them visibility into that data and into that information as they're trying to understand, you know, given the opaqueness of the market.

NARRATOR:

Beyond alternative sectors, another theme shaping investment decisions is dispersion, the widening gap between winners and losers across markets, property types and even individual assets. Erin explains why broad sector calls are no longer enough and need to be advanced by deal structuring and strategic asset managment.

[00:14:47] - Erin

From a research perspective, we're constantly looking at performance metrics, how different regions, different geographies, and sectors are performing. And dispersion across sectors, it's not new. It's been a trend long before this most recent disruption. But I think we are seeing some real differentiators that isolate where dispersion is happening, why it's happening today. And a lot of that is because our definition of real estate and how we use space is really changing quite dramatically, particularly with digitalization and AI coming into play. And so, markets are being redefined, new markets are emerging to accommodate shifting occupier footprints reflecting these changes in strategy.

And so, I think where this cycle is also different is: we have to be smart and very convicted in our strategies. And when we think about dispersion and where that capital is flowing, in the past you've been able to pick a sector, whether it be office, whether it be multifamily, and say, you know what, I am going to invest in this sector and I know that no matter where I invest, I am going to do well. The fundamentals are there. I know the direction that returns are moving, and I can pretty much allocate to multifamily in any geography I'm in. That is not the case today. There is dispersion in terms of demographic performance. We have shifting policy and political winds that mean people are moving at faster rates than we've ever seen. We have a demographic age shift as well, where we have a large portion of an ageing population, which lends to the emergence of senior living as more of an institutional sector. And that gives us the ability to also tap into that sectors in regions like Canada, where it's not quite as institutional. So, you know, I think in conclusion, this dispersion is going to continue to be extremely fragmented through this recovery. And I think that's a great thing for real estate, diversifying your risk across more property sectors, across more geographies, allowing new geographies to come into play, more data transparency. That is what is going to create value-add returns in a core-core-plus environment.

[00:18:24] - Jessica

100%. It is entirely about execution right now. As Erin highlighted here, the prior cycle largely demonstrated if you made the right call on the sector, you made the right call on the market, you got bailed out by cap rate compression. And that's what we call beta. That is not the current environment in the cycle that we're in right now. Today's environment, beta absolutely matters. We have to call the right sector. We got to call the right market. We got to call the right submarket, the right micro location in that market, right? There's a lot that all has to come together, but it's really the alpha that's going to drive that outperformance. And that's where we spend a lot of our time thinking about, and articulating.

NARRATOR:

Erin and Jessica note that investors can no longer rely on market momentum alone. Success increasingly depends on identifying the right assets, in the right locations, and executing effectively once capital is deployed. Maggie says investors are responding by placing greater emphasis on information, research, and sourcing advantages.

[00:20:46] - Maggie

From what Erin and Jessica shared, our investors have been scratching their heads over the last couple of years and trying to figure out where that alpha is going to come from. Again, as Jessica said, that traditional reliance on beta, whether it's from cap rate compression or rent growth through market beta, isn't necessarily the cornerstone of how investments are going to be driving outperformance going forward. investors, are really trying to get a handle on, how are they going to be making these investment decisions. What we do as a team, and Jessica articulated this, that information advantage over this early part of the cycle is just going to be absolutely critical.

[00:26:57] – Jessica

Again, this is how we kind of bring all those areas of alpha together for where do we have the information advantage, the execution advantage? And the sourcing advantage to really come together with something pretty strategic that we've now gotten to a final closing on here of a very large affordable housing portfolio structured as GP interest transactions, call it 40 to 50 assets across California, Texas, and Washington, and put together a portfolio that was complex, but a thoughtful structure that created alpha to execute on a pretty unique opportunity at a moment in time where we need that affordable housing and how do we maintain that affordable housing and how do we do that in a core plus risk structure. And so again, I think it's combining all those forces together of what are we seeing in the data, what are we seeing in the market, and where do we have kind of this right to win type of mentality and how do we bring that together into something that's pretty strategic and uniquely structured to really kind of grow and scale, and be a leader in that space and maintain that affordability too, which is something that's important to the platform as a whole.

[00:28:09] - Erin

Yeah, I love this example because it's us live in action, right? So, what is really cool about this is, again, Jessica said we were an early mover in this area. Not only that, we were an early-form team. A lot of us had just joined. Again, this was 3 years ago-ish, give or take. A lot of us had just joined the team. There was this amazing opportunity at our fingertips. Data was a little elusive. We didn't have much to go on, but we had conviction. And from a research standpoint, when I started to build the research platform along with my co-head, Victor Calanog, one of my priorities was not having a universe of markets that we would invest in. It was about defining considerations at the market and asset level that really guided where we wanted to be and why. So, looking at very specific demand-side drivers and supply-side dynamics to kind of inform where we would go and where we would have space. So, when this opportunity came to us, the nice rewarding part about it for me in research has been the dissemination of data and being able to learn more about affordable and attainable housing from a data standpoint as we've collected it, right? So now we have exposure, now we have a stake in that market. We can also use this data and the trends that we learn from the data and our own management to inform strategy in other regions.

[00:31:xx] - Maggie

I think the other thing that gets me really excited around research and how it influences our investments is this idea that it is regional specific. And I'm thinking about, our move into purpose-built student housing in Canada, where again, early mover in a Canadian asset class that is not quite institutional, but again, looking and starting with that supply-demand imbalance, it makes sense when you find the right partner. So I don’t know if you want to talk about that approach as well.

[00:31:36] - Erin

Yeah, I mean, similarly, looking at student housing data, again, very limited, and that's globally. You know, there are some data providers that have strong information in the sector, but by and large, it is a patchwork quilt of finding data to inform our strategy. But when you strip away a lot of the layers and really just look at the basic demand-supply side drivers, student housing in Canada specifically is chronically and very, very undersupplied relative to a lot of other countries globally. And I think what's also interesting about it, it's a complicated time in multifamily in general, right? So as Jessica talked about, many markets, and this is true in Canada as well as the US, many markets are oversupplied in a very particular defined segment of multifamily. And the price point doesn't necessarily match up with where the bulk of demand is today. And that influences all other subsectors within the multifamily space.

NARRATOR:

Research can help investors identify opportunities before they become widely recognized, particularly in sectors where data remains limited. But Jessica says market sentiment doesn't always align with underlying fundamentals, creating opportunities for investors willing to look beyond the crowd.

[00:34:23] - Jessica

Our industry as a whole, we tend to have a little bit of a herd mentality here across our peer set, which leads to what I described earlier with just limited quality deals that are available, you know, really a across, I'm going to say globally, but particularly North America, you have a lot of capital chasing the same thing.

[00:36:25] - Erin

Yeah, you know, it's funny, I don't know that I'd actually characterize the environment as opaque per se. You know, we have a wealth of data and information at our fingertips that we've never had before. Even for the niche sectors, alternative sectors that we've talked about where data can of course be more elusive, transparency is increasing. And the more market share that we have in those areas, the more data that we have access to. And so, you know, for instance, when we think about the recent energy price shock that's come out of the US-Iran conflict, you know, that's not about real estate, right? But it is. It trickles down and it's real. And investors, owners, operators, managers, we all really feel this. So, if we think about industrial, for example, industrial fundamentally right now is has seen a correction, is seeing, still seeing the, the endings, I think, of a correction, as well as a more measured pipeline coming out. Supply is becoming more constrained, of course, selectively, depending on where you're looking at market to market. And we are seeing uplift in take-up. We are seeing more rent growth in some areas and slowing contraction in other areas.

NARRATOR:

The conversation around data ultimately leads back to capital. While investors have access to more information than ever before, deploying money in today's market still requires conviction. Maggie explains how liquidity constraints have shaped investor behavior, and why many are now looking for managers that can provide solutions.

[00:40:31] - Maggie

When I think about the liquidity from the capital side, from the institutional allocations,  that liquidity has been really muted because of this elongated period of redemptions and the slow process of repatriating capital and LPs being able to visibly see kind of where valuations are, as well as where capital will be recycled after getting paid back from redemption. So there's been this kind of lull. That said, I do think that investors want to be active in this vintage, and that's really been driven by the idea that if you can be a liquidity solution provider, and you can identify teams like what we have here at Manulife that have these opportunities that represent, you know, our competitive edge as investors, but also outsized yield without taking on additional risk or even really de-risking opportunities--that's really where they are looking to recycle that capital into. And so I think there's this interesting push-pull that we've seen across the marketplace where the absence of liquidity has, I'd say, reduced where the opportunity set can actually be effectuated.

But that said, it's also created an environment where the opportunity set has become much more important in terms of the vintage and asset selection. So we're leaning in heavily on asset selection as we talk to our investors, given all of the factors that we've talked about. And I think that also helps them somewhat block the noise that Erin talked about because we see, you know, over the past, 2 years, whether it's the news cycle or the tariffs or just the volatility and other factors, it does trickle down into real estate and it does create a sense of uncertainty.

NARRATOR:

Providing liquidity solutions has been one way investors have generated opportunities during this cycle. From Jessica's perspective, periods of market stress often create the best conditions for creative dealmaking and differentiated returns.

[00:43:27] - Jessica

Look, if we go back 18 to 36 months ago, liquidity challenges in the US were extremely prevalent. If you could figure out how to solve a problem and solve that gap between counterparties, then you really created an opportunity set. But that wasn't everyone, right? There were people that were on the sidelines, as we highlighted early on. That's really where we leaned in and had conviction early on to really create our own opportunity set. Because as Erin alluded to earlier, every single deal, every transaction, it's a puzzle, right? And if you can problem solve and you can figure out how to create that value, then everything comes together, right? And that's what drives us all – unlocking that alpha.

In Canada, we've been able to kind of hit our strides really, I would say in the last, call it 12 months or so, to really address those redemption pressures, right? Those liquidity challenges that are happening kind of quietly behind the scenes. And look, it's really easy to enter a marketed process and pay the most, right? That's just not our platform and that's not where we spend our time. And so it's really about creating that opportunity set and being able to solve those challenges. There is always a solution for every problem, and it's about understanding what those problems are and how do we get to the right outcome.

[00:46:12] - Erin

Yeah, I mean, I think what Jessica is talking about here is a group therapy session, right? I mean, what we haven't addressed is the fear in the market, right? Especially, you know, around real estate, which is coming out of a pretty severe correction across the board. And even prior to that, like retail, for example, was, you know, the— has been the darling in terms of returns and has done very well, but retail went through a 15-year period of long correction and transformation.

[00:46:53] - Maggie

It was persona non grata.

[00:46:54] - Erin

Right, exactly. And so I think this fear piece, what it's done for us as we, you know, we're a team that is really stamping ourselves in the market right now and growing. And so we've talked a lot about this alpha piece and, you know, how we get there. And so, you know, what I think coins it well is this beyond beta. We've talked about sourcing, selection, structure, and strategy. Those 4 pieces coming together involve our entire global team, and it allows us to dispel some of those fears that our existing investors have in real estate as an investment class. There's scars, but how are we doing things differently? Where are we exposing, you know, their capital, their hard-earned cash into real estate in a methodical, thoughtful way?

NARRATOR:

Trust may help investors stay invested during uncertain periods, but conviction still needs to be backed by results. Jessica says that in today's market, outperformance comes from clearly identifying where value can be created throughout the deal lifecycle, whether through research, asset management, structure or sector expertise.

[00:48:27] - Jessica

But when we're underwriting and evaluating new investments, new opportunities, if we can't demonstrate how we're going to outperform, then it might not exist And so I think it's really kind of distilling down and understanding how to unlock that value How that puzzle comes together. And it might be we have a better asset management plan and execution on the ground. It might be we have better data and information coming out of our research about where we could be an early mover. It might be a sector advantage, as Maggie hit on, with some of the niche sectors. On the flip side, when we think about industrial opportunities for example, and whether or not we think development is the right choice in certain markets, we're still seeing cash-flowing opportunities that are generating similar returns to ground-up speculative development. So from our perspective, it still might not be the right time despite fundamentals saying otherwise. I think Erin highlighted early on kind of the leasing velocity and changes in momentum that have happened really fast. If you think 12 months ago, big box leasing was almost nonexistent, and today it's the complete opposite.

NARRATOR:

Throughout the discussion, one theme kept resurfacing: success in this market depends on combining research-led market and sector selection, sourcing, structure and execution. Maggie says those elements are most effective when they operate as part of an integrated investment process.

[00:52:18] - Maggie

And I think what your examples highlight is what's critical around,  the investment process that we've been talking about, which moves from research into strategic planning across all of our vehicles and across what we as a platform want to be focused on, and we integrate that with that kind of bottom-up approach as well. And so that to me is the hallmark of how we run as a team, and we're just constantly iterating around the top-down as well as the bottom-up to get to these really unique opportunities. And I think that industrial parallel that you just have laid out is a really great example.

[00:53:01] - Jessica

Yeah, I was kind of smiling when Erin was talking about early on when we thought about affordable housing a little bit because we literally sat in a room with a whiteboard all together skettching out. Like, what about this? What about this idea? What about this way and this entry point? And so again, it's a collaborative culture that we've created here. And I think as I highlighted earlier, you know, you wouldn't think of Manulife necessarily as being entrepreneurial, but we've been able to really be nimble and entrepreneurial in this market environment, in this platform. And that's something that, you know, I am proud of as a leader, as I'm sure you both are as well, and of our teams and being able to adapt to a changing market environment.

[00:53:45] - Maggie

Absolutely. I think the other piece of that is just the operational piece. We're back to—we're nimble in terms of our execution. We're nimble in terms of all of the things we've been talking about. And then now it's going to be also back to how do we operationalize the real estate? And that's, again, it's been kind of overlooked, I think, at the tail end of the this last cycle. So, you know, getting back to what excites us all about, you know, being leaders in this space.

[00:54:40] - Erin

And to Maggie's point just before around operation and, you know, our strategy, how we execute. And so much of my career has been spent in looking at macroeconomic factors, looking at demographics, and of course, I still do that on a daily basis. But what we've also started to look at is what is the translation from some of these macroeconomic pieces to operations, right? So we've been focusing on 4 key performance factors that help us curate sector selection. to reflect a blend of attributes to achieve optimal portfolio risk-adjusted returns that really support our returns from an income perspective, that operational piece, which ultimately underpins our value creation. So of those 4 key performance factors that we're looking at is our economic sensitivity, capital intensity, operating margin, and income growth. And so when we look at those 4 pieces, this is kind of a new way that we are diversifying within our portfolio. Economic sensitivity might be the easiest, most tangible way to explain it. So when we think about the blend of these attributes and the sectors that we have exposure to within our portfolio and how we are going to construct on a go-forward basis, we gauge these property types, these asset types against economic sensitivity.

NARRATOR:

The discussion so far has focused on how opportunities are being identified and executed today. Looking ahead, the group considers what the next phase of the cycle may reward, and whether investors will increasingly favor broader, more diversified strategies over concentrated sector bets.

[00:58:16] - Maggie

This particular moment in time seems to be a really poignant one for capital to be deployed into real estate. There is a tremendous amount of opportunity as we've been outlining today.What I'm really excited about is to be a solution provider for that capital that's looking for exposure. And in doing so with the team that's been put together to hit all of these advantages that Jessica and Erin and the rest of our team really deeply has a deep sense of conviction around that information advantage, that structure and execution advantage. I think all of it dovetails into what our global head, Marc Feliciano, talks about as a cultural advantage that I think aligns with a lot of our institutional partners. We talk about having a partnership-led approach, and I think that's only going to continue throughout the near term.

[00:59:03] - Jessica

Maybe I'll ask you a question, Maggie. I'll put you on the hot seat. There was a lot of sector-specific funds that were raised, right? Do you think you're seeing right now in terms of capital flows, maybe a shift back to diversified funds, right? And maybe limiting sector-specific exposure?

[00:59:24] - Maggie

For many of the larger institutions, when you're going into sector-specific funds, you really have to have a deep understanding of who's going to be the winners and the losers. I think we saw a big rise in IOS during the time when we all were evaluating our own IOS strategy. And some have performed, some have not. And so I think for our clients, given their staffing levels, given their desire for diversification across performance, across,  all of these factors we've been talking about and this growing level of dispersion, there is a desire for more diversified exposure. I also think there is a move back to core and core plus, and we're seeing that with the interest in our open-ended core plus fund here in the US, MUSRAF, as well as our Canadian core fund. So I think, you know, this is the first time in a long time, and I think PERE actually noted that, that there is a, a rise in allocations for core and core plus, which is, you know, exciting.

[01:00:25] - Erin

And I think, you know, the definition of core, core plus— we've talked a lot about the definition of core, core plus and how it's changing too. And at the end of the day, again, people are what drive real estate, right? The way we consume space, the way we operate within it, how we use it. And when you think about going sector-specific, I think the danger in that today is what is going to be the next area of real estate that people are really interested in and excited about? If we had taken a sector-driven approach 3 years ago, we would not be playing in all of the different spaces that we've been playing with. We would not have the data and the information advantage that we do, nor the expertise that we've been able to. refine over the last 3 years as a team, right?

NARRATOR:

Erin and Maggie argue that diversification, flexibility and information advantages are becoming increasingly important in a more fragmented market. Jessica takes that idea a step further, explaining how those advantages can help investors pursue value-add returns while maintaining a core-plus risk profile.

[01:02:10] - Jessica

The exciting part that I see in today's environment, kind of working through all this noise and really hitting on what you both alluded to, if we can really structure core plus risk at value-add returns, then we've navigated this market environment well, right? Because the bar is higher and return thresholds are higher. And it should be, right? There's more risk happening at a market-level environment, and I think we've been able to navigate that well through the areas that we've hit on throughout this podcast. But yeah, I think that's something that we've really kind of hit home on across our portfolios and strategies and clients is really manufacturing core plus risk at value-add returns. And I think we've done well at that.

[01:03:04] - Erin

I think so too. And in this environment of uncertainty and volatility, the last thing we want to introduce to our own clients is the same in how we invest.

[01:03:14] - Maggie

That's right.

NARRATOR:

The recovery in private real estate may be underway, but as today's discussion makes clear, it looks very different from previous cycles. Higher interest rates, shifting capital flows and growing dispersion across markets have made broad investment themes less reliable and asset selection more important.

For Erin, Maggie and Jessica, success in this environment depends on combining research, information and conviction with disciplined execution. Whether identifying opportunities in niche sectors, solving liquidity challenges or building more diversified portfolios, investors are being asked to navigate a market where outcomes are increasingly driven by strategy rather than momentum.

[music fades in]

NARRATOR:

Thanks again to Erin Patterson, Maggie Coleman and Jessica Harrison from Manulife for joining us. This episode was edited by Eric Fish, written and reported by Justin Sumner, and produced by me, Edward Cleaver.

If you want to hear more episodes, you can check us out wherever you listen to podcasts or at pei dash privaterealestate.com. Thanks for listening.